When you are starting a new ministry, one of the most important decisions you can make is “Who do you appoint to be on your board?” Today, I interview Dave Jones who has served with Luis Palau for 42 years. He is an expert in board governance and today he explains how your ministry organization can have a healthy board.
David Jones has served with the Luis Palau Association for 42 years in numerous leadership roles including the Global Network of Evangelists (GNE). David coaches GNE members in evangelism, strategic planning, organizational development, board governance, finance, media relations, and opportunities for ministry collaboration. David is a member of the Christian Leadership Alliance (CLA), Evangelical Press Association (EPA), National Religious Broadcasters (NRB), and the Society of Professional Journalists. He has served on the CLA faculty as well as the NRB’s Television Commission. David has served on the boards of over a dozen international Christian ministries and currently serves on the boards of Need Him Global and SAT 7. He frequently consults with nonprofit organizations. Since 1997 David has served as Executive Director of the Palau Foundation for World Evangelism. He and his wife Gayle are members of Village Church where David has served as an elder. David & Gayle make their home in Beaverton, Oregon. They have two daughters and four grandchildren.
Questions for David Jones:
- You’ve done a lot of coaching with non-profit boards especially the boards of evangelists. What has surprised you?
- So what is the role of the board in a Christ-centered ministry?
- What are some of the major responsibilities of the board?
- Evangelists, pastors and leaders listening to this podcast, what should they look for in a board member?
- How many people should be on a board?
The people you put on your board should brings value in one of three areas:
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (00:00):
When you’re starting a new ministry, one of the most important decisions you can make is who do you appoint to be on your board today? I interviewed Dave Jones who has served with Luis Palau for 42 years. He’s an expert in board governance, and today he explains how your organization can have a healthy board.
Evangelism Podcast Host (00:24):
Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Welcome to the evangelism podcast with Dr. Daniel King, where Daniel interviews, full-time evangelists, pastors, missionaries, and normal everyday Christians to discover how they share their faith, their powerful testimonies and amazing stories that will inspire you to reach people with the good news.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (00:55):
And now here’s your host, missionary and evangelist Daniel King. Welcome to the evangelism podcast. I’m Daniel King, and I’m excited about telling people about Jesus today. I have a very special guest. David Jones is with the global network of evangelists. It’s a ministry of Luis Palau and Dave Jones has actually served with the Louis Palau association for 42 years. And so what a tremendous legacy of faithfulness he has. Dave, thank you so much for joining me today.
Dave Jones (01:32):
Yeah, it’s good to be with you Daniel. So appreciate you and your ministry and the a soul winners Alliance that you lead. Love you guys. Thanks for having me. It’s an honor.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (01:43):
Thank you, Mr. Dave, I’ve been coaching evangelists in how to set up their ministries. A lot of of young evangelists are coming to me and say, Daniel, I really want to be in ministry. Do you think I should start a five Oh one C3 non-profit organization? And they’re just going through all the steps that are required in order to have a ministry in good standing with the government and doing things the right way. And one of the questions that frequently comes up is about who they should put on the board and how they should put their board together as they’re starting a ministry. And so you happen to be an expert in board development. And so I wanted to ask you some questions about putting together a board for a ministry.
Dave Jones (02:38):
Well, thanks, Dale. Yeah, I’ve I remember golly is probably 20 years ago. I was invited to the Billy Graham center at the Cove and they invited me to lecture on two topics building a high-performance board and strategic planning. And what me in my lecture on building a board is, and this was a room full of pastors, Christian leaders, evangelists, very sharp, very gifted people. They were writing frantically just about everything I said. And I realized I had a hit on a topic that at that time there hadn’t been a lot of teaching on now. It’s a lot different now, but I’ve also in my years of ministry have discovered regretfully. There is in our circle, there is some dysfunction on boards, both in churches and ministries and a big reason for it is the, the board has never paused and asked the question, why are we here?
Dave Jones (03:47):
What’s our role? Where are we going? And, and that really surprised me because most of the boards I have coached or worked with comprised, they’re comprised of very gifted individuals serious Christ followers business people who, who in their own business, they would, they would never hire someone without having some sort of conversation about, Hey, this is why this company exists. This is the mission of this company. This is where we’re going. This is your role. This is your responsibility. This is how you fit into the strategic direction of this company. They, they just, they wouldn’t hire someone without that conversation yet, yet, yet they would join the board of a nonprofit or a church or a Christ centered organization without their ever be in a conversation about why are we here? What, what’s our responsibility?
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (04:42):
Yeah. I’ve seen organizations that have had very unhealthy boards sometimes, especially in charismatic circles. It seems like a lot of boards are just there for the purpose of saying yes to the founder where you only have maybe three people or five people that are very close friends of the founder and whatever the founder says, they say, yes, go for it. And, and I think the reason sometimes they do that is because they’re scared of someone taking over the board or taking the organization in a direction that, that they don’t feel that they’re supposed to go. But if you have a healthy board full of people that believe in the mission of the organization and that are qualified and can bring some influence and some resources to the board, you actually can accomplish a lot more with a board that is healthy. Then you can with a board that is just simply there to say yes to the founder.
Dave Jones (05:44):
Yeah, absolutely. You’re absolutely correct. Daniel, a healthy board that understands its role can really transform a ministry, an organization. It could take it to a, another level, conversely, a weak board or a rubber stamp board. It can be disastrous. Usually it leads to dysfunction and it, it definitely hinders growth. I, again, I don’t think boards set out with the, with the, with the goal of being disruptive. It’s just, again, it’s usually because they don’t understand, they haven’t asked the question, why are we here? What’s our role. And they don’t quite, they don’t get it, that they have a, a really important role in setting policy and strategic direction for the ministry. They have a, obviously a fiduciary, they have certain legal responsibilities, but one of their biggest responsibilities is just to provide oversight for the ministry, not to be a rubber stamp group of individuals, but to provide some serious oversight for the ministry and to make sure they’re working with the leader, the evangelist, the pastor in establishing strategic direction, where they’ve, they’ve actually set out and they’ve determined what the mission of the organization is.
Dave Jones (07:12):
And, and then they’ve, they’ve put together a strategic plan with the evangelists or the founder of the pastor to accomplish, accomplish the mission. I think one of the mistakes some boards make is they don’t understand that they have that governance oversight role. And they start meddling in my new little non-issue daily details. A friend of mine called it a boards to get down into the weeds of ministry rather than stay at that higher.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (07:45):
Yeah. So talk to me about the difference between governing and managing. So yeah,
Dave Jones (07:52):
Well, there’s a, there’s a big difference. I mean, governing is a higher view. It’s, you’re, you’re providing that. Like I said, that that oversight, you’re making you’re, you’re you’re setting policy you’re building some parameters and offenses to protect the the ministry. You, you recognize there’s you know, some risk assessment there’s you got to give that, that leadership, the oversight, you’re an ambassador for the ministry. You know an example I’m a practical example would be, you know, a board works with the ministry to approve a budget, but the board doesn’t manage the day-to-day details of the budget. That’s a management responsibility boards don’t get down in, you know, the GL numbers and, and asking questions. Well, why did we spend this much on printing? And the board sets the Turmans the, the budget, and then the, the leader and his team has staff, volunteers, whatever, they, they manage that budget.
Dave Jones (09:04):
Obviously the board would get monthly or quarterly financial reports because they have a fiduciary responsibility, but they, but they don’t get down into the nuts and bolts and details of daily administrating that I mean, you’ve got boards are not administrators, they’re not managers. They have that very, very important role of determining mission direction and providing oversight. So there is a huge difference. I think part of the problem in ministry is oftentimes, especially with small organizations, maybe where there’s a founder and maybe only one paid part-time person, or it might be a budget of 200,000 or less. These are very small ministries. Sometimes board members are also volunteers and that gets real messy because when did they have their board governance hat on? And when do they have their, you know, volunteer sort of non-paid staff on it’s it, it can create some confusion.
Dave Jones (10:10):
And I think that is a hurdle that smaller ministries have to jump over and have to deal with when they have board members who were also volunteers and are showing up at the office and getting into the nuts and bolts of the operation. Personally, I think if at all possible should avoid that, let a board member be a board member, let a board member provide the necessary oversight and and leadership, the embeds, and be an ambassador for the organization helped shape the the mission and direction, but not get involved in the nitty-gritty tiny little details of the day-to-day operation. That’s, that’s a management job.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (10:55):
Let’s talk a little bit about the responsibilities of the board. What are some of the major responsibilities that board members should, should undertake to fulfill?
Dave Jones (11:08):
Yeah, well, well, first and foremost they have a responsibility to in, in case of an evangelist to bless encourage support the evangelists they have, they have in the nonprofit world, the board has a huge responsibility to select the leader. Now, in the case of an evangelist it’s a little different than other nonprofit organizations. So first and foremost, they have a an important role in selecting, encouraging, reviewing a blessing cake, take caring for the leader in his family. And then second boards really need to make sure there’s an effective planning process in place. I mean, boards need to provide strategic direction, so they need to be involved in some sort of strategic planning where they’re helping sh determine the mission where they’re determining values. So they’ve they’ve a role to make sure there’s some sort of written plan for the organization.
Dave Jones (12:17):
Of course they have a boards have a fiduciary responsibility, they have to provide some sort of financial oversight. So they do need to stay abreast of the finances and how the ministry is doing financially, as well as help bring about those resources that are necessary to grow the organization to accomplish the plan. I always tell leaders, avoid board members that have an allergy to fundraising or funny views about money because providing financial oversight and money is a big, is a big part of running a ministry. Boards also have a responsibility to be an ambassador for the ministry. And that means they have to be keep abreast of what’s going on in the ministry. They have to be able to speak and tell them gently about the direction of the ministry. And then obviously boards participate in, you know, decision-making, there are certain decisions that do require board advice and input.
Dave Jones (13:21):
I think one of the things that boards don’t do a very good job of is self-assessment. One of the boards I serve on my, my job description is an annual self-assessment where we pull the board, we survey them board we, we, we evaluated how we’re doing as a board. We actually grade ourselves on 10 really important areas of our responsibility. So self-assessment is a real important role of a board and most boards I’m amazed how few boards do a serious self-assessment. And then of course, in a Christ centered organization, the board has to provide some, you know, some spiritual leadership and oversight. Prayer should be a big part of the board. I mean, I would hope any person serving on a board of a Christ centered organization is a prayer warrior for that board. And boards also need to maintain some standard, a standard of excellence.
Dave Jones (14:24):
I mean, excellence should be the core value of every Christ centered organization. Boards have a also responsibility to keep records, minutes of meetings or certain practical thing board that boards have to do. And then of course boards have to recruit and if, especially if the board terms, it’s their responsibility to recruit new members, we’re a good fit. And then depending on the size of the organization and whether or not they’re part of the evangelical council for financial accountability, or maybe some other group there are standards especially financial standards that a board has to make sure is met. So those are some of the practical things boards should do. And again, I’m just, I’m kind of surprised that there are boards that just never have that conversation about why are we here? And what’s our role.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (15:26):
So if someone is about ready to start a ministry, or they recognize that they need to find better board members for the ministry that they currently have, what should people look for in a board member?
Dave Jones (15:43):
Yeah, that’s a very good question. I mean, another thing that has surprised me in my many years of ministry is that boards, some boards are not more intentional about who they bring on the board, especially smaller ministries. I think sometimes they’re, they’re more keen on just meat assuring themselves that they’ve met sort of the IRS or some legal requirement. You know, you have to have in a nonprofit, the nonprofit world, you have to have at least three board members. And I think sometimes the founder or the evangelists, the, the missionary ministry leader, they kind of find three friends and say, Hey, will you be, be on my board? And then they sell them a false bill of goods that we only were. We don’t meet that often. It doesn’t take any of your time and there’s nothing for you to do, but I just need that.
Dave Jones (16:37):
I just need to find three people to be on my board. Well, that’s a, that’s a recipe for disaster. That’s, that’s a pretty impotent board. They’re not going to help you grow your organization. So, so yeah, there’s several things I would look for in a board. Especially if it’s a Christ centered organization and evangelists, there are some scriptural qualifications, obviously in the new Testament, there are some qualifications and I think those need to be abided by they’re there in the new Testament for good reason. I, I also like to look for people that just really love the Lord with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, another biblical principle godly people like that. Obviously you’re going to want to look for people that agree with your mission, where you’re going. They agree with your values that, that are love with what you do.
Dave Jones (17:34):
I mean, those are the kind of people you want on your board. People who have proven to you that, wow, this person really loves what we do. I, I look for people of faith, big faith. I, people that, I mean, when you’re an evangelist or any meetings, ministry leader, it’s, it’s, it’s a, you’re a faith based ministry. So you want people with, I would say with faith I would look for prayer warriors, people who passionate about prayer people who have a positive world view you, you want, you definitely want positive people. Not that there’s enough negativity around the, for people who, you know, are encourages, who are positive, who, who believe passionately in you. And one of the things I look for which oftentimes gets overlooked, I I’m a huge believer in chemistry and fit. I mean sometimes boards and leaders, they, they look for a candidate who makes, if he has deep pockets or has a reputation for being successful, but they’ve never asked is, is this person a really a good fit for our organization and for the, the other board members?
Dave Jones (18:57):
It can be really disruptive to a high profile warming board when you bring in a board member where the chemistry and the fit is, is horrific. I remember serving on a board quite a number of years ago, and I was accepted. I was a young man at the time, and I was excited to go on this board because when I looked at the resumes of the other ones, people on the board, I thought, wow, this is an all-star board. I could learn a lot by just sitting at the feet of these these gentlemen while the chemistry and fit was terrible. I was really surprised. There was a lot of egos and deliberations at times were ugly. And I mean, I did not flying service on that board to be the enjoyable experience. I thought that it was going to be, so, yeah, fit is really important.
Dave Jones (19:47):
Look for people, I have a wide network of contacts. You want results oriented people. I, and this is hard to do, but you can, with some interviews and questions you need, you need the board members who can differentiate between issues. And non-issues, I I’ve, I’ve coached some boards and I’ve quickly figured out that the, the particular board, it has a tendency to get down what I call the weeds of ministry. And they start to break things that really are not should abort. I shouldn’t discuss it’s a lot of times it’s staff work or just what I would call it’s a non-issue why are we having an argument or debate over this? It’s just not enough important issue. You want a team players, certainly you want people that don’t have a conflict of interest. You want people with you know, you want on the board, a variety of different experiences boards have responsibility confidentiality as well.
Dave Jones (20:49):
You want people to understand the importance of confidentiality. And then a big one. I mentioned this a little earlier. You, you definitely want board members that don’t have what I call an allergy to fundraising. I don’t, I don’t think a lot of board members realize, Hey, one of the most important roles they have is to make sure the ministry has the financial resources. It needs to accomplish the mission. And you can’t be a, you can’t be an effective ambassador for a ministry that you, you personally don’t support. So I mean, I think every board member should be a donor to the, to the organization on whose board they serve. And, and you want to try to figure out, make sure the person doesn’t have odd notions about money just is really peculiar, really strange views of money. Cause they can be disruptive in a board meeting as well.
Dave Jones (21:47):
And finally, this is one, I don’t think I’ve, I don’t think I’ve seen this up here. I do a lot of reading. I’d go to webinars. One that I feel is really important, but I don’t. I think I’m one of the few peoples ever brought this up. I think it’s important that a board candidate that the person’s spouse is just as equally excited about them serving on the board as they are. I think a disgruntled spouse or a spouse is not real, too excited about their husband or wife joining a board that can be disruptive. It can be, you know, if Thursday night when the individual’s heading off to the board meeting, if the spouse is saying, where are you going? Why are you going there? Why, why are you on this board? You’re gone. You’re away too much. Why you didn’t talk to me about, yeah, I think it’s important.
Dave Jones (22:38):
He can have some buy-in and some enthusiasm from your spouse before you accept an invitation to serve on a board. So, so those, those are the, some of the things I would look for. One that I’m really big on though, is the chemistry and fit. I think that’s so important if you’ve ever for, for your audience and for the leaders, missionaries evangelists, watching this blog. If, if they’ve ever served on a board where the chemistry and fit was bad, they, that I know for a fact, they couldn’t wait for their turn to be upset. They weren’t at all interested in a second term.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (23:18):
Yeah. Recently someone was asking me who they should put on their board. And I told him that there’s three characteristics that you should look for. Someone should either have influence and help to widen the influence of the organization, or someone should bring resources to the board. So maybe a businessman or, or someone who can bring a significant amount of resources and has friends with resources or someone could bring expertise the board. So having expertise in a particular area. So like on my board, I have people who have influence. So there are pastors that help introduce me to, to other pastors and, and put their, their spiritual endorsement on our ministry. I also have had businessmen on my board who, who helped to support the ministry. And then in the area of expertise right now, we’ve got a a wonderful board member. Who’s a CPA who helps to answer all my, my questions about money and, and in handling money properly. And so if you can find people with influence resources and expertise and, and everything else that you said, I say a Hardy, amen. They need to believe in the mission of the organization. And they need to really love the, the other people on the board and, and come with a Christ-like attitude to have service. So once you have a good board put together, what are, what are some of the questions that the board should be asking to help the organization?
Dave Jones (24:45):
Well, yeah, that’s, that’s good. They definitely I mean the, the whole area of strategy and direction you know, where we’re going as a, as an organization that that’s, that’s I mean, that’s just, that’s, that’s huge and boards, you know, basically I excellent board man a good board member, someone who brings a value to the organization. And part of that, that value is looking at like, what are the, I mean, what are the trends that are impacting this ministry and as a board, how, how are we going to address, address these? Are we missing some policies? I mean, boards are policy setting groups board should ask the, the, the leader, Hey, what are the opportunities out there? I I’m big on SWOT analysis, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. I mean, board should, from time to time do a SWAT analysis, especially asking the question, what, what are the opportunities out there?
Dave Jones (25:52):
And, and how are we going to seize them? Another important question is is in the area of risk assessment. I mean, you would think this isn’t a problem, but there, there are ministries out there that have been defrauded and it’s because they just didn’t have good controls in place. So a board has a responsibility in that area as well. One of the questions boards, I think they don’t like to ask cause involves fundraising, but the boards really need to be engaged in, in development and fundraising and, and ask the question, Hey, how, how are we as a board helping to raise and bring about the financial resources that this ministry needs to accomplish its its plans, and to move and move forward. Another, another important question is the board, once the mission is determined from time to time needs to make sure the organization is mission focused.
Dave Jones (27:01):
There’s a great book on the market right now called mission drift. And there are, there are churches and ministries are Christ centered organizations that are wrestling with mission drift. And usually it’s it’s because they’ve, they’ve compromised their mission sometimes for the sake of getting a certain grant from someplace, or they’ve allowed some donor to have undue influence on the direction. And so that they fall into the trap of mission drift just to, so they can secure a, a grant. Instead of just saying to the individual, you know what you’re asking us to do just doesn’t fit the mission. It’s not what we’re about. We’d love to have you as a prayer partner supporter, but if your gift has those kinds of strings attached to it, we just respectfully decline the gift. That’s hard to do. It’s hard to do, but boards have a responsibility to protect the integrity and the mission of the organization.
Dave Jones (28:06):
You know, again, this whole self evaluation ward should ask, Hey, is service on this board satisfying? Is it rewarding? If not, why? Boards, yeah, the boards, there are a lot of questions, but I think the a big question is for the board to ask is how do we define success? And what are our how do we measure what we’re doing to ensure that goals are being met and where we’re being successful? So, yeah, I think measures of achievement or something boards should ask, but again, you don’t want the board to get down in the nuts and bolts and day-to-day details and the grind of, of, of ministry that staff work that’s worked for the volunteers and the staff. That’s not board work.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (29:05):
Do you have any thoughts on how many people should be on a board relative to the size of the organization?
Dave Jones (29:12):
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Boards can be too big. I, typical guys say a board’s too big when healthy deliberation is almost impossible because there’s just too many people boards can be too small when you you just don’t have enough people to fill committees or get the board and work done. So but I think usually boards are too small when they just, the board work just can’t get accomplished. You don’t have, I mean, on boards, there should be some sort of development fundraising committee. There should be some sort of audit and finance committee there. I mean, there’s certain committees a board should have. So as a subdivide, the work of a board and a board is too small, if you just don’t have enough people to staff those committees. So I don’t think there’s, well, I, I do think a board can be too big.
Dave Jones (30:10):
I, I know of a, an organization who at one time had like a hundred board members. Well, that’s crazy. I mean, they just, they were, I think they just wanted all these people’s names or something. Obviously those people were not engaged or highly involved. And that’s, I mean, that could, that could be a real governance issue. I think in the, in the case of this organization, they put together some sort of executive committee, which they were the real board. I wouldn’t even consider the other people board members because they, they were doing board work, but yeah, boards, while legally you got to have at least three somewhere between three and a hundred, you got to keep it. I wouldn’t go as high as I would say between three and maybe 20 or 15, depending on the size of your organization.
Dave Jones (31:05):
But, and that’s a good question. I mean, yeah, boards can be too small and they can be too big. I interesting story. Daniel, I remember years ago, I was a guys a lot quite a while ago, but I was in a workshop a leadership workshop and the presenter asked the question of the audience and the audiences. These are leaders. I mean, these were serious Christian leaders. The question was, would you have a board if it wasn’t required by law? How many of you would not have a board if it wasn’t required by law? And I was shocked Daniel, most of the hands, just, I mean, I couldn’t believe that most of the people in the room raised their hand and said they would not have a board. Well, that, I mean, I clearly says to me that it wasn’t a hyper there, the board of these individuals wasn’t, wasn’t a high-performing board.
Dave Jones (32:06):
It they didn’t understand the role that the board was probably dysfunctional and creating problems for the leader. Here’s another interesting story. This was, I don’t know, four or five years ago, the president of a seminary, a large seminary in the United States. He wanted to meet with me. I couldn’t figure out why, what a seminary president. I want to meet with me. I was, but I thought, okay, fine. I’ll meet with you. Well, and he we met and I said, I’m glad to meet you, but why, why did you want to meet me? He said, this is the word he used Daniel. He said are within our denomination. And he used the word epidemic. We have an epidemic problem. I thought, wow, you know what, w what do I know about seminaries and epidemic problems and denomination, but he said, we have an epidemic problem.
Dave Jones (33:06):
And here’s the problem you described. You said too many of our pastors are quitting. The ministry are leaving the ministry after only three or four years in ministry. And the reason is dysfunctional boards boards that are just giving them fits to the point. They don’t want to be in ministry anymore. And that saddened me because one, I don’t think men and women join a board with the idea they’re going to give the pastor the advantages or leader fits, or they’re going to my goal. I’m joining this board so I can make this guy’s life. So terribly. He wants to quit ministry. I think it’s, again, it’s just because they don’t understand their role and responsibilities because they’d never had a conversation for, I was, I was doing board training. Oh, probably two years ago for a church. And afterwards, one of the board members, an elder came up to me. He said, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I had no idea why I was on this board and what I was responsible for. Absolutely no idea. Well, that’s, that’s a real weakness. I think in our circles in that there’s no orientation for board members. I mean, no one should join a board with, without some sort of orientation where they’re told, Hey, this is the mission of this organization. This is where we’re going, and this is how you’re going to help us get there.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (34:35):
Well, thank you so much for helping boards to be healthy boards. Mr. David Jones is with a global network of evangelists, and you can reach out to them for more information on how to have an effective board. Mr. Dave, thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Dave Jones (34:56):
Daniel is a blessing. I love you, brother. Love what you do. Love your soul winners Alliance. Keep up the good work. Persist my friend.
Evangelism Coach Daniel King (35:04):
Thank you, God bless you. Hi, I’m Daniel King. Thank you so much for listening to the evangelism podcast today. I love going around the world telling people about Jesus, but I can’t do it without people like you. See, every time we go to preach the gospel, we buy a plane ticket. We have to do advertising. We have to pay money to rent a sound system. And we found that takes an average of about $1 for every person we’re able to reach for Jesus. And so I’m asking people to go to my website, King ministries.com and give at least $1 a month, just $1 a month. That’s less than the cost of a cup of coffee for $1 a month. You can start a party in heaven every single month. And while you’re at it, go to Apple iTunes and leave the evangelism podcast. A positive review. Your five-star review will help other people who are excited about evangelism to find this podcast. Thanks for listening. God bless you
Evangelism Podcast Host (36:08):
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